College Basketball: A Roundtable Discussion

Another CigarBoy interview with some very knowledgeable college basketball men. 

The suspects:

Dan Peters—the new associate head coach at Ohio State.   He was previously the associate head coach at University of Cincinnati, coach at Youngstown State, Division II St. Joe’s and Walsh College.

Richard Skinner—he is half of the morning team on 1360 Homer radio in Cincinnati.  He also works in marketing for Turfway Park and is the former University of Kentucky beat writer for the Cincinnati Post.

Lance McAlister—the afternoon sports show host and sports know-it-all for 1360 Homer radio in Cincinnati  

The four of us sat down for a free flowing basketball discussion over some good food and cigars at Sheakey’s Pub and Grub in Florence, KY.    Well Lance didn’t smoke a cigar but the other three of us did.

I started out by saying that I would not put them on the spot and make them talk about Title IX and was greeted with collective moans, groans and shaking of heads.  So we will leave that topic for another discussion.

What we did talk about covers a wide range of issues that define the modern game of college basketball.

Bill Kintner: The first thing I want to talk about today is the changes in college basketball.  It was only 10-15 years ago that a lot of teams were averaging 90 points per game and now it’s totally rare when that happens.  Let’s talk a little bit about how the game has changed and why it’s changed – and we’ll start with Dan on this.

Dan Peters:   In the last 10-15 years?

BK:  Yes.

DP:  Well, obviously, some of those really good players aren’t going to college.  So let’s forget those guys.  But there are still really talented players.  Just like if you’d turn on the classic station, you look at some of those games.  Look at those teams.  Look at who’s on those teams.  So not only do you have good players, you also had guys that stuck around more than one year.  They’re going to the NBA right away.  I think that’s the one thing…I think it is hard to keep a team together awhile.  You look at teams that do really well in the tournament.  That’s a team that’s been together a little bit with some experienced guys.  I also think coaches are teaching defense now.  I think, because you still got your 35 second clock, kids can’t shoot the ball like they used to be able to.  I mean our skill level, just like I told you, I was over in Italy.  Those kids that were overseas, they shoot the ball better, I think they pass it better, they don’t pound it as much – they understand team concepts.  I’m not sure we teach the game that way.  Our system maybe doesn’t lend itself to that way, the way it does over there.  So I think those are a few reasons.

BK:  Just jump in when you want to add something.

Richard Skinner:  Yeah, I’ll do one.  I think it is two-fold; I’ll agree with Dan on one part: I think coaches now teach defense more because they can control defense more.  I mean you can’t control whether a guy makes a jump shot, whether your offensive set works.  But you can control whether or not a guy works harder on defense, guards on defense.  I think the other part, this is going to sound bad because I’m going to diss coaches a little bit and I don’t mean to, but I think coaches are so afraid anymore to give up a lay-up, they won’t press.  Because they are afraid in the end, after watching three years of lay-ups they’re gonna get fired.  And whether that system works or not, it doesn’t matter to the administration.  The system may work in year four, may work in year three, it may work in year five.  But for a couple of years when you maybe don’t have the athletes and you put that system in, the administrator’s going, “Why were you giving up lay-ups?  Why are they scoring?  Why’s that happening?”  Well, it’s not fair and I’ll use Rick Pitino as an example.  He doesn’t press anymore.  He was one of the guys that brought pressing back into college basketball.  If you notice at Louisville, they don’t press anymore. I don’t think he’s afraid for his job because he’s not going to lose it, but I think he’s even taking a step back going, “You know what? We can’t give up open lay-ups because it makes us all look bad.”  I think that’s one of the reasons why get 30 second possessions.  You get a lot tougher defense in the half court – and it leads to less scoring.  It doesn’t mean there’s better defense being played; it means less points are being scored.

Lance McAllister:  Let me jump in on that.  You mention some of the changes in scoring and I think scoring’s gone down as shooting percentage has gone down because I don’t think it’s any secret the mid-range game is gone in college basketball and the NBA.  Kids don’t work on, eleven, twelve, or fourteen footers.  The mid-range game has been replaced by three-point shooting and getting to the basket to dunk.  And my biggest issue has always been with the three-point line. I thought they should move it back.  When you have a three-point line that is used, on average, 33% of the time in college basketball.  One out of every three shots is a three.  There’s something wrong.  That should be a specialized shot.  The three-point shooter that I envision is Reggie Miller, Steve Alford, and Glenn Rice shooting threes.  Everybody shouldn’t be shooting threes.  When a third of your shots are threes, that’s too high a percentage and I think it’s brought…the shooting percentages down.  I think that’s, an issue you look at.

RS:   I think Dan would address this better than we would.  I guarantee you that most of your offensive sets are designed to shoot a three or you dunk the ball or you lay it in, one or the other.  It is not designed for coming off a curl and shooting a 12-foot jump shot.  It’s designed to shoot a three or we’ll dunk the ball – one or the other.

DP:   Well, in UC’s case our sets, believe it or not, are designed to mainly go inside first.  You know, you think of the teams that Huggs has had there and the players that he’s had there that have gone to the NBA.  For the most part, other than Nick Van Exel and Ruben, they’ve all been post players.  So our sets are designed to go inside first.  I wouldn’t disagree with what you guys are saying about shooting the three and I would really agree about shooting percentages – let’s get back to coaching stuff.  Look at the lower levels because the way our system is anymore with the AAU and the way these kids are treated.  They’re pampered, they’re babied, and guys want them on their team so there’s a kind “of let the kids do what they want” attitude.  It’s kind of…… run up and down and it’s either shoot the three or get all the way to the hole.  And one thing I would kind of disagree with you on is this – because I used to always press and I’ve coached at every level: freshman coach in high school which means you basically sweep up the floors.  I’ve coached high school – head coach for three years, and I’ve been in NAIA and D-II, and I’ve been in D-I.  The one thing I would say is this: the higher up you go (and especially today because the kids in our country really are pretty good with the ball in their hands because it’s kind if evolved into the one-on-one stuff) it’s very difficult to press because as you go up, those kids can go right through that press.  We were pressing at UC early this last year, and were doing pretty good with it, right?  But we had better talent than some of those teams we were playing.  Now all of the sudden when we start playing better teams, they’re throwing out of our traps, getting the ball to the back side, and the kid’s standing there wide open with his feet planted.  We can’t get to him in time to contest that shot, and they’re knocking it down.  Let’s say they all shoot threes.  If they shoot 6 of them, they shoot 33%.  That’s 2 out of 6.  Well, guess what?  That’s six points.  Six points in six shots.  So if you go back to Dean Smith when he used to have all that OER stuff (offensive efficiency stuff), he used to say if you get, I think, .75 per procession, you’re doing pretty well.  Well, if I’m giving six points in six possessions, that’s 1.0.  That’s really good so I just think the higher up you go the harder it is to press That is why they don’t press,

RS:  Especially with an 8-second half-court thing anymore.  I mean, think about trying to cross in eight seconds.  You can’t do that in the college game.  You press and you give eight seconds, they ain’t getting across that court.  But in the pros, they don’t even press.  They got eight seconds to get across that court.

DP:  The kids are too good with the ball, really because in high school or the lower levels, you might have two good ball players.  Now all these kids dribble and shoot.  When we were growing up, shoot if you were 6’6” or 6’8” but you didn’t dribble the ball.  You were inside.  Now everybody on your team can handle the ball so you’re playing against teams that probably have three or four guys that can legitimately handle the ball.

LM:  Well, I’ll give you another issue and I’d love to get your thoughts on it.  You mention the lack of continuity or consistency with the roster with so many guys leaving early.  I know this is pie in the sky because there’s not a true minor league system.  But I would love to see a day where do what MLB and the NCAA does – where if you step foot on the campus, you’re committed to the school for three years.  I think it would add to the consistency of the team and knowing each other would certainly make life easier from the recruiting standpoint to know when a kid puts on your uniform, they are there for three years before they can leave.  And, I think from a fan’s standpoint, you can watch and grow with the team and know the players and follow them for three years instead of worrying about players leaving early.  From a coaching standpoint, you don’t have to worry about recruiting a kid who leaves after a one year, then having to hurry up and scramble to replace him.  At least a consistency from the fan’s standpoint, a consistency from the game’s standpoint…I think it helps all around.  The problem is there’s not a true minor league system that would allow the kid (who doesn’t want to commit three years) to simply jump in to someplace at the pro level.  He’s not going straight to the NBA but he doesn’t have a spot to go to as a legitimate developmental league right now.

DP:  Well, I think that’s great.  Now as soon as you get elected to the Supreme Court (all laugh) you can get that changed when kids are going at 17 years old to the NBA.  Because now you are getting into court issues; that’s what you are talking about now.  Really it’s what the NFL is trying to do right now and it’s exactly what they’re fighting.  That would never happen again in an ideal world.

LM:  But in a perfect world if you could…tell me this if this would eventually work?  If the kid doesn’t want to commit to the school for three years and he wants to turn pro out of high school, have a legitimate…have the NBA each have a minor league team.  And the Indiana Pacers draft Johnny Jumpshot and send him to their minor league affiliate, the Anderson Indians or the Muncie Bobcats or whatever.  And during the middle of the season if the Pacers hear that the kid is getting better, they call him up from the minor league affiliate, the Muncie whoevers, and bring him up.

RS:  It doesn’t work because you can’t afford that.  No way does that league make money and the teams don’t make money, hence you go broke.

DP:  Well, back in about 1980, a guy told me, as soon as businesses figure out they can make money on it, exactly what you’re talking about would happen.  And I think it could happen eventually.  Like, we have the developmental league in the NBA.  I think if a guy could figure out how to make money, you’d have that – and you’d have a league like that.  I think a lot of the problems that we have would be solved.

BK:  Somewhere in the last ten years there’s been an increased emphasis on defense.  Where’d that start from?  Is there one coach that was really good at defense and then everyone copied it?  There’s a lot more emphasis on defense now than there was ten years ago.

LM:  It became cool with Nolan Richards and 40 minutes of hell.

RS:  And the same thing…Pitino made it cool to trap and press.  I know that Tubby has done that and Huggins has done that.  I mean defense is technically, really what people think wins games.  You know, Mike DeCourcy has made this point several times: in March, offensive efficiency wins games.  You got to guard people.  And the best defensive team in the NCAA tournament this year was probably Pitt.  They got out in the round of 32.  Not because they weren’t good defense.  They were great defensively.  In the round of 32 they played great defense.  In the round of 16 or whatever round they got beat in, they played great defense.  But they couldn’t score with the ball.  I mean they couldn’t score an ounce.  So it is cool to play defense because I think you can control that better.  I mean this is by no means a stretch of what Dan does, but I coach a 5^th grade team.  The thing I emphasize every time is defense.  We lose games 10-8.  Why?  Because we guard.  That’s what I preach.  That’s what I know.  I can tell them I can control that, you will stop the other teams from scoring.  I can’t control making shots or running sets.

LM:  Let me ask Dan this, that in the day and age where the perception is everybody wants to score, who wants to play defense?  At UC you guys have managed to drill that into kids’ heads and it comes down to either you play defense and play, or you don’t play defense and sit.  I’m just amazed that you guys have consistently (for the most part) been able to get kids who commit to playing defense.  What it seems like everybody would want to do things on the other end of the court and if my guy scores, fine.  I know Huggins fights that, but how have you guys maintained that as a system?

DP:  Just really three hours of getting yelled at all day (all laugh at this) really has a way of doing it to you.

RS:  That can do it to you.

DP:  But you know what?  First of all, Richard, my son will not play for you if it’s 10-8.  So, I’m telling you he’s not going to be on your team.

RS:  (Chuckling) Then he’s just missing out apparently, right?

DP:   You know I still say this: basketball is a funny game.  You can be bad and everything but if you can put the ball in the basket they love you.  But I will say this – and let’s go back to the best league in the world, and that’s the NBA – why in the play-offs are scores lower?  One big reason is the court is not opened up so when they shoot the ball, they’re getting at least two people back to start with, sometimes three.  I can tell you this from having watched all those years: the offense always has the advantage when it’s four or less on the defensive end.  You can really be bad on defense.  If you get five guys back there, and I don’t care if you get back and just stand in the zone, you don’t have to be able to guard.  Get your hand up and you’re in position – you go ahead and shoot and when you miss it, we rebound it, it’s two.  So you get people back and you play really good from say 20 feet and in.  It’s very difficult to score.  You have got everybody back there, you’re synchronized and everybody knows what he is doing.  When the court’s spread, you listen about spacing, running the floor, and guys can’t be covered.  Well, anytime it’s less than five guys, offense has the advantage.  Five or more, I think, the defense has the advantage

BK:   Has anyone here ever won an office pool?  We’ve got basketball experts here.  Has anyone ever won an office pool at this table?

RS:   I finished second twice.  I never won.  I’m not going to lie to you.

DP:   Zero.

BK:  Zero, but I finished second this year?

DP:   Zero

LM:  I don’t win because I put too much thought into it.  I sit there and pull out the RPI sheet, I look at the match-ups, I figure out how each team shoots and I can’t get away from that.              

BK:  And then the secretary in your office takes the one with the best uniforms and beats you.

LM:  That’s not fair because they pick mascots and they pick nicknames…

RS:  Here’s what I did.  I swear to God.  This year I took UIC to beat Kansas because I thought the point guard for UIC was better than Aaron Miles.  My mistake.  He was not and guess what?  Kansas won.  So I mean, you do that stuff and you lose.  I mean you’re out in the first round.            

LM:  The other thing I do and most people – and this is the rule that most people don’t follow – I fill out one pool sheet.  One set of picks, that’s it.  Everybody else runs around with ten pool sheets.  And I get tired of them running up and down the halls saying “I picked so and so for the upset.  I say, “What did you do on the other nine sheets?”  Well, I picked them to lose. (Chuckles)  That’s not fair, you do one sheet.

DP:  That’s why I wish I was in the media.  I could say stuff wrong and no one would remember it.  You know what I mean?  In coaching they remember those nine times you were wrong!

BK:  Let’s talk a little bit about parity.  We’re seeing unprecedented parity in basketball right now.  Why is that?

RS:  I think this would be a good question for Dan, but I think he’ll probably agree.  The thirteen-scholarship limit just limits you and there’re so many good players today.  Thirty or forty years ago you didn’t have many blacks playing college basketball.  You had them on the fringe.  Today you have great players playing basketball at every level, hence it goes up at the college level and now you can’t hide four or five good players playing somewhere.  Cincinnati, even Kentucky, Louisville, I mean you name it.  There’s three or four good players playing elsewhere. 

DP:  Carry that a step further.  Look even in college football what’s happening.  The reduction to eighty-five scholarships.

RS: (Said at the same time…) Eighty-five scholarships!  Absolutely!

DP:  Really you know when Rick was at Kentucky – he had thirty guys on scholarship because that way they couldn’t go to the other schools.  He was only going to play five or six.  Twenty-five guys weren’t playing but they were getting it all paid for.

RS:   And that’s the point.  In that day, I mean no knock to today but there was no big money in playing professional sports.  The big money was you get your education for free, you go make a living in business or whatever you were making a living in.  You were happy just to be on scholarship. Hence, Dan’s right.  I mean you could have twenty-five, thirty-five guys on a scholarship.  Today, thirteen limits it to the point where you have better players going to second tier schools,  You know, Jameer Nelson, where was he?  Nobody, well I shouldn’t say nobody knew Jameer, but he went to St. Joe’s.  Now why did Jameer Nelson end up at St. Joe’s?  Because other schools took this guy, that guy and hence Jameer is at St. Joe’s. 

LM:   It’s stuff like St, Joe – I think of Valparaiso’s Rudd a couple of years ago.  I think kids are more comfortable in thinking, “If I go to school ‘ABC’ I might fight for playing time.  If I go to school ‘D’ I can get the playing time; I can make a name for myself.  And the way things are today; I can be noticed and seen on TV.  I’m not going to be lost.  I don’t have to be at the top of my ‘X’ amount of schools. I can go another place, I can get the attention, I can help my team win.”  And Jameer Nelson, I think is a perfect example of kids who say, “Well, if he can go to St. Joe’s and he can become player of the year, then I can go to this school that’s maybe not on the radar of my friends and they think those are the cool places to go.  I can still have an opportunity at the school below the radar screen.”

DP:  Again, go back to the thirteen.  Let’s say I’ve got two point guards and you call me about a kid who’s really, really a good player, right?  And he’s a good player, but you say, “Geez coach, I know he’s a good player, but I’ve already got two guys; I’m not recruiting point guards this year.”  So they don’t recruit that kid.  Jameer Nelson was always a good player.  I think the one thing about him is he was short.  He’s still short.   He’s still a good player, though I remember the first time I ever saw that kid out in the tournament in San Diego.   I remember sitting there thinking the kid can flat out play the game.  I mean, he was a really good player.  So I think the thirteen has a lot to do with…

RS:   Well it does because it doesn’t allow you to take the chance on Jameer Nelson.  You’re at your level and right now – UC for example – they’ve got two point guards, Chadd Moore and Jihad Mohammed.  What happens if Chadd Moore can’t play, for example?  What happens if the injury is so bad, he can’t play?  Well, you’re locked into that kid.  You can’t all of the sudden go, “Well, I saw the kid who was short the freshman year, he’s now 5”10.  Hopefully he grows another inch or two – and even that, you can’t take that kid; you have no chance because you have thirteen scholarships.  You can’t go above and beyond.

DP:   You also mentioned Valpo and I think Valpo may be the best example of how they figured out long ago they couldn’t get the big kids from the United States.  But European kids who play college basketball – you say college basketball and the words “D-I”, those kids over there think there’s no difference between Valpo and UC or Valpo and “X” or Valpo and Kentucky.  So they go out and recruit that kid so they’re working with them for two or three years.  Where Kentucky or UC can go out and recruit a better kid right away and he is a better player than that European kid is to start with.  But now you have him for a couple of years and you develop them, but I think basketball now is not just American; it’s worldwide.  And the coaching worldwide is better, the kids work at it more.  You know there’s a more avenues to get kids that maybe ten years ago.